The great battle is raging in the Donbass, but the federal government continues to embarrass itself with its bickering over arms deliveries. In “Hart aber fair” Frank Plasberg sums up the dangerous embarrassment: “Ukraine is fighting, Germany hesitates: are we paralyzed by the fear of Putin?”
The guests
Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann (64, FDP). The resolute defense politician (“Zack-Zimmermann”) accuses the chancellor of shirking and lousy tricks. She is connected from Berlin.
Jan van Aachen (60, left). The peace researcher is against arms deliveries, preferring to rely on China and India. ommm!
Yevgenia Belorusets (42). For the Ukrainian writer, territorial cessions to Russia are “inconceivable”.
Egon Ramms (73). The retired NATO general comes from tank construction and trained officers in the Baltic States after his retirement.
Michael Thumann (59). The journalist (“Zeit”) clears up with Putin’s propaganda lie that the West has promised not to expand NATO to the East.
The Chancellor is accused of discouragement. How brave are Plasberg’s guests? The Zoff-O-Meter also gives posture marks!
Most encouraging situation assessment
The general is off to a great start: “The war will probably not end quickly,” he predicts. “I expect that Ukrainians will successfully defend their country. There are a number of signs, even now after the new offensive, that they will succeed.”
His analysis: “I’m assuming that the Ukrainians will be able to hold or even reconquer corresponding areas of land in the east as well, and maybe then in the south as well,” says Ramms. boom!
Most realistic assessments
“Putin is against any form of peace agreement,” says the Ukrainian. “The only end to this war is a military halt to the incredible violence!”
“The war will only come to an end when Putin realizes that he’s not getting anywhere, his army is struggling,” said the “Zeit” journalist.
Photo: WDR/Das Erste
” data-zoom-src=”https://bilder.bild.de/fotos/die-talkrunde-vl–marie-agnes-strack-zimmermann-jan-van-aken-michael-thumann-yevgenia-belorusets-c65d694c8baa442aa931ff6f0d2ce4df -79882400/image/1.image.jpg”/> The panel discussion: (from left) Marie-Agnes Strack-Zimmermann, Jan van Aken, Michael Thumann, Yevgenia Belorusets, Egon Ramms and Frank PlasbergPhoto: WDR/Das Erste
Various proposed solutions
“What can we do in Germany so that the Kremlin is ready to negotiate as soon as possible?” asks the peace researcher. “It doesn’t work militarily, it only works if you’re put under economic pressure.”
“There will only be one solution: to defeat Putin militarily,” Strack-Zimmermann disagrees. “That’s why we should stand with Ukraine and send appropriate weapons. Putin only understands the plain language of guns!”
Most provocative question
An ARD clip shows some of the 100 Marder tanks that the armaments company Rheinmetall wants to deliver to the Ukraine. SPD leader Saskia Esken: “The question is currently not up for debate because the tanks cannot be used directly.”
Plasberg senses Zoff and radios the FDP politician: “Does that mean that the FDP demand to send heavy weapons is not even perceived as a contribution to the debate?”
Most precise correction
“But! Of course!” counters Strack-Zimmermann. “What is happening now is that Eastern Europeans are immediately delivering Soviet material to Ukraine and we are sending them the marten in return. The fact is that heavy material is being sent and it is overdue.” Hallelujah!
“I believe that these Russian-made tanks are only a temporary solution,” reports the general, but: “It could buy us time to prepare Ukrainian soldiers for Leopard, Marder and the corresponding artillery pieces.”
Most frightening realization
Ramms complains that after the chancellor’s “turning point” speech, these questions could have been “discussed” quickly, “so that these tanks could already be in the Ukraine with trained personnel.” Uff!
“These are subtleties that don’t interest Putin at all,” the “Zeit” journalist stated without hesitation. “The Russian perception is worse than we imagine. The ones they are at war with, that’s us! It is about supremacy in Europe!”
Most emotional outburst
“During this time, women are raped and murdered, and children are murdered every day,” the Ukrainian complains. “In Odessa, a woman was killed with her baby. It’s not about waging war with these heavy weapons, it’s about saving lives!”
<img class="photo ondemand zoomable" src="https://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/yevgenia-belorusets-ukrainische-fotografin-kuenstlerin-und-schriftstellerin-5c3faae4cc0142d6b91c65f0efdc31af-79882408/1,w=1280,c=0.bild.jpg" width="1280" alt="Yevgenia Belorusets, ukrainische Fotografin, Künstlerin und Schriftstellerin" data-zoom-title="Yevgenia Belorusets, ukrainische Fotografin, Künstlerin und Schriftstellerin
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Yevgenia Belorusets, Ukrainian photographer, artist and writerPhoto: WDR/Das Erste
Most absurd accusation
“I have the feeling that we took a wrong turn somewhere,” grumbles the left-wing politician. “We used to be a country that was able to think outside of the military in such situations! Why aren’t we talking about sanctions?”
Von Aken’s anger: “Since the beginning of the war, the European Union alone has transferred 41.3 billion euros to Moscow because nobody is willing to discuss an oil embargo here!” claims the left-wing politician and takes the FDP colleague on the horns: “They’re the ones against a speed limit.” Wow!
The Zoff-O-Meter immediately starts
“With a speed limit and a car-free Sunday alone, we would have paid 300 million euros less to Moscow’s war machine!” the left-wing politician continued to rage.
Excitement around! Of course, sanctions are being discussed, Strack-Zimmermann corrects and fumes: “I find it macabre to throw the speed limit into this context, compared to what is happening in Ukraine! The point is that people are being killed!”
Clearest announcement
“Putin wants to wipe Ukraine off the map and he’s killing everything to do it,” added the FDP politician. “Please don’t be naïve by talking about a speed limit!”
Angry babble of voices again. Aken wants to speak again, but now the talk show host intervenes, builds up in front of the left-wing politician and decrees par ordre du mufti: “The speed limit, we’re going to cancel that now. I actually find that too banal!”
Most moving reports
Strack-Zimmermann provides information about her conversations with Ukrainian parliamentarians: “One of them told us that I’m 33 years old, have three small children, and now I only deal with weapons. Another told me she’s now getting back into the fight.”
Plasberg reads a comment by SPD parliamentary group leader Rolf Mützenich, who grumbled after the politicians returned from Kyiv: “It is wrong to demand unprecedented decisions under the impression of on-site visits without having to answer for them yourself.”
<img class="photo ondemand zoomable" src="https://bilder.bild.de/fotos-skaliert/moderator-frank-plasberg-86776cb8373e47a7b09a7d3ad44c5d42-79882412/1,w=1280,c=0.bild.jpg" width="1280" alt="Moderator Frank Plasberg" data-zoom-title="Moderator Frank Plasberg
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Moderator Frank PlasbergPhoto: WDR/Das Erste
most desperate question
Oh! “We’re living in this nightmare and trying not to go insane!” the Ukrainian complains, and then she bursts out: “What is Putin trying to sell as a victory – new rapes in Bucha?” she calls out with pleading hands. “Shall we give him a city so he can kill the children there?”
Their harrowing comparison is reminiscent of a cruel idol in whose temple infants were burned: “Just such a sacrifice to Baal as described in the Bible, and then will Putin sell it in Moscow as a victory?”
And again Zoff
Ukrainian anger at what was perceived as cynical impositions, she says, probably also led to the Federal President being indirectly disinvited. Plasberg doesn’t want to accept that: “I think Selenskyj always knows exactly what he’s saying, because he really is a gifted communicator!”
“Sometimes you have to show that you can’t do everything with us,” the Ukrainian rebukes him. “Sometimes, even in this incredible need, we too will have to set limits.”
Fits! Especially when such visits are not so much about supporting Ukraine as they are about PR tricks that politicians use to whitewash themselves after willful mistakes.
Last Stand
The left-wing politician takes another deep breath: “I have to say something now. I’m not just a decoration here. A German general just said: We want victory!” He points accusingly to the other end of the group.
Ramms immediately raises his index finger: “I quoted Churchill,” he defends himself. As is well known, the famous wartime prime minister had no problem saying what he thought.
Plasberg rushes to the general’s aid: “We don’t need a fact check,” he confirms. “He didn’t say: We want victory.”
But the Ukrainian abbreviates the sophistry energetically: “But we want to win!”, she explains frankly and blankly. “We were able to defend ourselves against Russia’s heavy weapons with partisan weapons. We can declare the myth of the strong Russian army destroyed!”
Her fearless prognosis: “Whether Putin turns his head or not does not depend on us. But he won’t because he wants to live.” Amen!
quote of the evening
“I notice that it has become a bit modern to pillory Scholz.” Frank Plasberg
Conclusion
The leitmotif was soon lost, instead there was a lot of noise about minor matters and the voice of reason had a hard time and the talk show host constantly stumbled out of step: This was a show in the “friendly fire” category.