2023-10-28 13:43:00
Beneath his dandy appearance, always dressed to the nines, the 61-year-old lawyer Carolo is a formidable hard worker and an outstanding litigator. We have seen him in action during famous trials (Cools, Riga, Pirson, Habran, Storme, Wesphael, the diabolical lovers, etc.) and his clients have often emerged winners or less heavily punished than expected. His work force and intellectual agility, whether he is on the side of the accused or the victims, are great assets in front of a jury.
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Jean-Philippe Mainz, your grandfather was a magistrate. Your father, a lawyer. You have two lawyer children. Was it inevitable that you became a lawyer?
“Honestly, no. From primary school, I asked to go to boarding school. I wanted to do lots of things, sport with my friends, or in any case move around. I only came home on weekends and so I never really realized it. I knew my father was a well-known lawyer. But I was in my trip. I wanted to become a footballer. I did a test at Anderlecht during the days of Raymond Goethals. I trained with Rensenbrink. Goethals told my father that I might one day be able to play first grade but that I would never be a great one. I even ended up playing in D3. But I ultimately chose to study law because I believed it opened up the most opportunities. I did lots of things at the same time, I played tennis, I had federal training, I played football with the unif team, lots of things that seemed more interesting to me than my studies.”
Charleroi – Rue Tumelaire: Jean-Philippe Mayence – Lawyer. In Charleroi, October 24, 2023 ©JC Guillaume
Are you already planning to face criminal charges?
“I started working in commercial law, but it wasn’t my thing. And then, I arrived at my father’s office. My brother was there. It’s difficult for me to talk about it because he died young of AIDS. I was helping my father in criminal law. Then he died in 2000. I found myself alone, quite young, at a time when we experienced the first major media trials. I say this jokingly, but well-known criminal lawyers have become like rock stars.”
Jean-Philippe Mainz, is he a bit like the son who surpassed his father Philippe?
“In terms of notoriety, that’s a certainty. Because, I repeat, everything has changed in terms of media communication. Criminal lawyers have become stars. He had his fan club that followed him in all his trials. Now, in terms of qualities, I had boundless admiration for him. He taught me my trade. I think he must be particularly proud of what I do. I always have this idea that he is behind me. He had qualities that I don’t have. I have easier social contact than him. He was calmer, he wrote remarkably well. He made drawings, journalistic, humorous sketches.”
Austere, methodical, haughty, dandy, snob, loving beautiful cars and beautiful clothes… Is all that you?
“I am very hardworking and very rigorous. I can have a strict image, be very harsh in what I say. But I respect institutions and ethics. I don’t carry around in sneakers to go to court. At work, I wear a jacket. I’m not friends with customers, I don’t pat them on the back. But, aside from that, in life, I’m a party animal, I love all things in life, I love wine, I go to football. Last Sunday, I went to see a P4 match. You know, when you went to boarding school and played football all over Belgium, I can assure you that when you are at the corner of a counter, you get a pat on the back and everything is fine . There, I am natural.”
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I claim the quality of my work which has allowed me to reach a certain level.
You are still aware of having reached the top, right?
“It’s very difficult to say because I don’t like talking about myself. But I must also note that if people come to find me, it is hoping to find something with me that they will not find elsewhere. I am aware of my qualities but also of my limitations. My field, criminal, is extremely restricted. I claim the quality of my work which has allowed me to reach a certain level. As a civil party, I have never left a trial with a complete acquittal of the accused. Yes, it’s a source of pride. But I also experienced defeats, all bitter. And, yes, it gets to me, I’m a winner.”
And the nice clothes? The beautiful cars?
“Dressing well doesn’t cost more. It’s just a matter of taste. My father and mother started with zero money. When I started as a lawyer, I didn’t get help from anyone. Indeed, when my father died, I inherited it, he had made investments, and that allowed me to enjoy my life. But I always worked and my wife, who died, also worked. I always dreamed of being able to buy a nice car. Which I was only able to do at 53. And so, I drive a Porsche. I pay attention to my image because I like to be clean. It’s true that I like beautiful things. Today, I have a house in Marrakech, paid for little by little. But all the people who bought a house on the Côte d’Azur that costs ten times a house in Morocco, we never talk about it.”
How are you Carolo?
“I am very attached to the land. I speak Walloon, I understand all his expressions. I believe I have the main quality of the Carolos, that is to say the sociable aspect. Outside of my professional environment, I see people, we go for a drink, I feel good everywhere. I went to see a P4 match this weekend in Mont-sur-Marchienne. I came across a former Sporting player who had played with me at the Olympic. We talked, we had a drink. These are people I have known for a long time and there is no reason for that to change. I was born in Charleroi, I live here, my office is here, I do not have a secondary office in Brussels. I claim my Carolo label.”
The first time I was approached in politics, I was thirty years old. Louis Michel called me for a position as Secretary of State. “You have to be there tomorrow for the government photo.” I was on vacation in Portugal. My mother was proud, I was flattered at first.
Your mother, Jacqueline Mainz, was a PRL deputy and minister. You were approached by the liberals and the cdH but you always refused…
“Yes, but always with a lot of hesitation. I am passionate about politics. I love debates. I am quite attentive to conciliation and I think that there is a way to change things. I have lots of ideas. The first time I was approached, I was young, I was thirty years old. Louis Michel called me for a position as Secretary of State. ‘You have to be there tomorrow for the government photo.’ I was on vacation in Portugal. My mother was proud, I was flattered at first. And then I wondered why they were offering it to me. Because my mother had stopped politics? Because I have a good head? Because I’m going to do voices? Because I have a name known in Charleroi? I’m not sure it was for my expertise.”
Later, there was the cdH too…
“Joëlle Milquet asked me to be a minister but that meant giving up a lot of things. Politics is a lot of blockages for ideological reasons. I can’t stand democracy. I wasn’t sure I could respect this hierarchy that forces us to press a button because we’re asked to. And then, when my wife died, I found myself alone with my three children. I had to earn my living. And politics can only last one year, two years. I would have liked to do some. It’s something I’ll probably miss. But here I am, I made a choice.”
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Which file affected you the most?
“A lot. But the affair that I experienced with the most intensity is not the best known. A man had murdered his wife, the mother of his four children. Murdered because she was learning French and trying to take driving lessons to gain some independence. And he didn’t tolerate that and massacred her in the middle of the street in a small village near Tournai. I was an advocate for children who were taken into foster care. I told myself that we had to do everything so that they could develop and be happy in a country that could welcome them. The man was sentenced to life imprisonment. But then I told myself that life could be terrible.”
I can defend a terrorist who says he did nothing, but I cannot defend a terrorist who asks me to defend his ideological cause.
At the trial of the Brussels attacks, while you were defending a civil party, you uttered a rant…
“I found the attitude of the accused to be intolerable. They spoke among themselves during the indictments. It was disrespectful. I knew anyway that, in this long-term trial, Stockholm syndrome would play a role. The jurors saw the defendants every day. A certain form of proximity is then created. It’s natural. I think that terrorism has no place in a criminal court. We need a jurisdiction, a specific tribunal, with for example, instead of a 100% popular jury, three civilians and three professional magistrates. As much as I am the greatest defender of the criminal court where human feelings are evoked. ‘I killed because I loved, I killed because I was jealous.’ Yes or no, was there an intention to kill? Was the act provoked? All of these are concepts that the jury can appreciate. You don’t have to be a great lawyer. But with terrorism, we are dealing with something else.”
You declared that you would not have defended Salah Abdeslam…
“I can defend a terrorist who says he did nothing, but I cannot defend a terrorist who asks me to defend his ideological cause, who wants to use a trial to make propaganda. I don’t want to be his instrument.”
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